Full transcript of “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan,” April 6, 2025
On this “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan” broadcast, moderated by Margaret Brennan:
- Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick
- Sen. John Barrasso, Republican of Wyoming
- Sen. Maria Cantwell, Democrat of Washington
- Rep. Don Bacon, Republican of Nebraska
- NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte
Click here to browse full transcripts from 2025 of “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan.”
MARGARET BRENNAN: I’m Margaret Brennan in Washington.
And this week on Face the Nation: President Trump vows to reshape global trade, and that sends stock markets reeling. Is it just short-term pain or a long-term problem?
President Trump delivered on his campaign promises, putting 25 percent duties on foreign autos and 10 percent on imports from all countries, but his decision to launch a surprise round of wide-ranging tariffs on allies and adversaries alike, shocked investors and sparked recession fears.
(Begin VT)
DONALD TRUMP (President of the United States): The markets are going to boom. The stock is going to boom. The country is going to boom.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: The president claims all is going according to plan and hit the links this weekend, though he was tracking headlines about China’s decision to fire back with tariffs on all American products.
We will get the latest from President Trump’s point man on tariffs, Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick, and check in with the number two Senate Republican, John Barrasso. He’s tasked with carrying out the other part of the president’s economic agenda, sweeping tax cuts.
House Republican Don Bacon and Democratic Senator Maria Cantwell will also join us. They want Congress to reclaim its authority over trade policy.
Then, as the administration continues talks with Russia for a possible peace deal in Ukraine, we will ask NATO Secretary-General Mark Rutte what the budding relationship could mean for the future of the Western alliance.
It’s all just ahead on Face the Nation.
Good morning, and welcome to Face the Nation.
It is shaping up to be another turbulent week, as President Trump’s trade war with the world escalates. The global sell-off triggered by President Trump’s tariff announcements wiped out more than $6 trillion of wealth from the U.S. stock market in just two days.
In a social media post yesterday, the president urged the country to hang tough, all this as tens of thousands of people took to the streets yesterday from Washington, D.C., to Minnesota and Columbus, Ohio, protesting many of Trump’s policies, Elon Musk and tariffs.
We begin this morning with Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick.
Mr. Secretary, welcome to Face the Nation.
HOWARD LUTNICK (U.S. Commerce Secretary): Great to be here.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We see about 60 percent of Americans have money in the stock market, which mean that retirees could be just as concerned as hedge fund managers this morning.
Did you expect this level of shock in the financial markets?
SECRETARY HOWARD LUTNICK: Well, you have got to realize this is a national security issue. I mean, we don’t make medicine in this country anymore. We don’t make ships. We don’t have enough steel and aluminum to fight a battle, right?
All our semiconductors are made overseas, so every button we press when we try to start our car or even use our microwave, these are all semiconductors. They’re all made elsewhere. We have got to start to protect ourselves, and we have got to stop having all the countries of the world ripping us off.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SECRETARY HOWARD LUTNICK: We have a $1.2 trillion trade deficit, and the rest of the world has a surplus with us. They’re earning our money. They’re taking our money.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
SECRETARY HOWARD LUTNICK: And Donald Trump has seen this, and he’s going to stop it.
So it is going to be a big change. Of course, it’s going to be a big change, but the rest of the world has been ripping us off for all these many years. Donald Trump has seen it. He’s spoken about it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I understand that. And…
SECRETARY HOWARD LUTNICK: And he’s just not going to take it anymore, and that’s his model.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And that was abundantly clear during the presidential campaign how much the president truly believes in tariffs and putting it at the center of his economic policy.
But you saw absolute panic in the global markets. Did you expect that, or were you surprised?
SECRETARY HOWARD LUTNICK: No, I think the point is, you need to reset the power of the United States of America and reset it against all our allies and our enemies alike.
The idea that all the countries of the world can run trade surpluses with America and buy our things with us, remember, $1.2 trillion – in 1980, we were a net investor, meaning we owned more of the rest of the world than they owned of us.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes, it’s a different world. This is a different market.
SECRETARY HOWARD LUTNICK: And now – and now they own $18 trillion of us net. So that means the rest of the world – every year, when we run a $1.2 trillion deficit, the rest of the world buys $1.2 trillion of America.
And it goes up and up and up, and eventually we’re not going to own America, and we are going to be owned by the rest of the world.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Are you talking about…
SECRETARY HOWARD LUTNICK: Imagine if we had a war and we can’t build a ship…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes. OK.
SECRETARY HOWARD LUTNICK: … we can’t fly a plane, we can’t build our own planes, we don’t have our own semiconductors. This is what the president is here to fix for America. It’s in his hands and he wants to fix America. This is his chance to fix America.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Understood. So…
SECRETARY HOWARD LUTNICK: And we need him to fix it for our children and our grandchildren.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK, but for businesses to do what you’re doing, because what I hear you laying out there is a plan to reindustrialize the United States and to bring companies back to America.
For a CEO to choose to invest…
SECRETARY HOWARD LUTNICK: Well said. Well said.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But for a CEO to make those decisions, you know this, they need certainty. They need to know if it costs them more to stay overseas or if it costs them more to move here.
So can you give them clarity, so that they don’t just cut jobs because they’re dealing with the cost of these tariffs? Can you tell them how long they’re staying in place?
SECRETARY HOWARD LUTNICK: Absolutely.
The United States of America is going to protect the people who invest in America. Trillions and trillions of dollars, you heard the president speak about it, are coming to invest in America. This is the economy of the world.
We are the consumer of the world, and companies need to build it here and we will protect them for building it here.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK. So does…
SECRETARY HOWARD LUTNICK: We will help the American workers. Yes, American workers are more expensive, but they’re better.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I got it.
SECRETARY HOWARD LUTNICK: We’re going to protect all the factories that come to America. And that’s what’s coming here. So, the president is on it. He’s going to protect them.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK. Is the 10 percent tariff permanent?
SECRETARY HOWARD LUTNICK: Well, remember, this is a national security issue.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I got it. Is the 10 percent tariff permanent?
SECRETARY HOWARD LUTNICK: And he needs to address our budget deficit.
That – you know, the laws of America are the laws of America. He would like it to be that we need to protect the companies that invest here and we are going to protect the companies that invest here. That is the policy of the United States of America. That’s why trillions of dollars are coming here.
The ripoff of the United States of America is over.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes. OK.
SECRETARY HOWARD LUTNICK: All these companies are going to come and invest here. That’s what they’re doing. That’s why they have committed trillions of dollars. They know this is the economy. This is the place to go.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK. Mr. Secretary, though – Mr. Secretary, the campaign is over. You won.
So I’m asking what the plan is. So, the Treasury secretary said on another network: “We’re going to hold the course. It’s not the kind of thing you can negotiate away in days or weeks.”
That makes it sound like the tariffs are staying in place at least for days or weeks. Is that correct? Or is the president considering postponing implementation to negotiate?
SECRETARY HOWARD LUTNICK: There is no postponing. They are definitely going to stay in place for days and weeks. That is sort of obvious.
The president needs to reset global trade. Everybody has a trade surplus and we have a trade deficit. We are paying away our future and our lives. The countries of the world are ripping us off.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
SECRETARY HOWARD LUTNICK: And it’s got to end. The president has made it crystal, crystal clear. This is the policy.
We are going to protect – the factories that come build in America, we are going to protect them.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
SECRETARY HOWARD LUTNICK: They’re going to be successful. That’s why they’re going to build in America, the greatest economy in the Earth.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So…
SECRETARY HOWARD LUTNICK: All of these companies are going to come and build here.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So when three of the president’s other economic advisers who are on other networks today say that 50 different countries have been calling the White House to try to talk about the tariffs, what does that mean?
Because that makes it sound like there is a negotiation, which is different from saying the tariffs are permanent.
SECRETARY HOWARD LUTNICK: Well, what it shows is that all these countries know that they have been ripping us off and the day has come for that to end.
Now, the problem is, it’s not just tariffs. Like, I will give you an example. Like, Vietnam said, they’d like to be zero-zero. Remember, Vietnam sends us $120 billion worth of goods every year.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes, cheap manufacturing.
SECRETARY HOWARD LUTNICK: And we send them about $12 billion. Wait. We send them $12 billion.
So it’s not the tariffs. It has nothing to do with tariffs. If they went to zero-zero, they would go to $200 billion with us. We need to stop the ripoff. And zero-zero is the way to make them more of a ripoff.
MARGARET BRENNAN: No, but we don’t have zero-zero, sir.
SECRETARY HOWARD LUTNICK: We need…
MARGARET BRENNAN: We don’t have zero-zero, actually, because when we saw the president stand in the Rose Garden holding up that chart that you helped make, that wasn’t actually tariffs.
That was actually confusing to investors, because it was some kind of other formula. And the countries themselves seemed kind of random. Like, why are the Heard Island and McDonald Islands, which don’t export to the United States and are quite literally inhabited by penguins, why do they face 10 percent tariffs?
Did you use A.I. to generate this?
(LAUGHTER)
SECRETARY HOWARD LUTNICK: No. No, the idea – look, the idea is that there are many countries left off.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Why are they on the list?
SECRETARY HOWARD LUTNICK: Because the idea – what happens is, if you leave anything off the list, the countries that try to basically arbitrage America go through those countries to us.
Any country – like, we had tariffs – the president put tariffs on China, right, in 2018. And then what China started doing is, they started going through other countries to America.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
SECRETARY HOWARD LUTNICK: They just built through other countries through America.
And so the president knows that. He’s tired of it. And he’s going to fix that. So, basically, he said, look, I can’t let any part of the world be a place where China or other countries can ship through them.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Through the…
(CROSSTALK)
SECRETARY HOWARD LUTNICK: So he ended those loopholes, these ridiculous loopholes.
And now what he’s trying to say is, I’m going to fix the trade deficit of the United States of America.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Got it.
SECRETARY HOWARD LUTNICK: It’s a national security issue. We need to make medicine. We need to make semiconductors.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SECRETARY HOWARD LUTNICK: We need to make ships. We need to have steel and aluminum. Come on, we need the greatness of America to actually be built in America.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So…
SECRETARY HOWARD LUTNICK: And he’s tired of getting ripped off by the rest of the world.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK, but, just to be clear, April 9, the so-called retaliatory tariffs, the reciprocal tariffs, I should say, are those coming or are they open to negotiation?
SECRETARY HOWARD LUTNICK: The tariffs are coming.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
SECRETARY HOWARD LUTNICK: He announced it and he wasn’t kidding.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
SECRETARY HOWARD LUTNICK: The tariffs are coming. Of course they are.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
Is the administration considering any kind of offset, any kind of subsidy? You mentioned, the first administration, there was some bailout to farmers to help them deal with the pain from Chinese retaliation.
Are you looking at that now?
SECRETARY HOWARD LUTNICK: I’m – not that I have – I have not participated in any meetings with respect to that. The country is focused on – you realize, trillions of dollars of factories are going to be built in America. That’s huge GDP. The factories being built in America are huge GDP.
MARGARET BRENNAN: That takes years.
SECRETARY HOWARD LUTNICK: And that is going to matter to us.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And you have said that robots are going to fill those jobs. So, those aren’t union worker jobs.
SECRETARY HOWARD LUTNICK: No, it’s really automated jobs. It’s automated factories, automated factories. But the key is, who’s going to build the factories, who’s going to operate the factories, who’s going to make them work, great American workers.
You know, we are going to replace…
MARGARET BRENNAN: You said robots on other networks. You said that to FOX.
SECRETARY HOWARD LUTNICK: … the armies of millions of people – well, remember, the army of millions and millions of human beings screwing in little, little screws to make iPhones, that kind of thing is going to come to America.
It’s going to be automated. And great Americans, the tradecraft of America, is going to fix them, is going to work on them. They’re going to be mechanics. There’s going to be HVAC specialists. There’s going to be electricians.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SECRETARY HOWARD LUTNICK: The tradecraft of America, our high school- educated Americans, the core to our work force is going to have the greatest resurgence…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SECRETARY HOWARD LUTNICK: … of jobs in the history of America to work on these high-tech factories, which are all coming to America. That’s what’s going to build our next generation of America.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Are you concerned that – are you concerned, in the time it will take for a company to move to America, that it will benefit China in the – in the immediate term, that other markets will look to other suppliers, instead of dealing with the United States?
SECRETARY HOWARD LUTNICK: That is ridiculous. The problem is, everyone in the world sells to us.
Our economy is the consumer of the world. We are the only one with a trade deficit. The rest of the world has a trade surplus. Why does Europe have a trade surplus? Is there something about Europe that’s special? Seriously, are they a different world than we are? Why are they selling $200 billion a year…
(CROSSTALK)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mr. Secretary…
SECRETARY HOWARD LUTNICK: … more to us?
It’s because it’s not fair. The rules are made not fair. And President Trump is going to fix them.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SECRETARY HOWARD LUTNICK: And he’s doing it for America, and he’s doing it for your children and mine and our grandchildren. This is the moment that the United States of America takes hold of itself.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
SECRETARY HOWARD LUTNICK: And Donald Trump’s been talking about this his whole life. This is Donald Trump’s agenda.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SECRETARY HOWARD LUTNICK: And we’re all here to help him execute it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And we will take him at his word, quite literally.
Thank you, Mr. Secretary, for your time this morning.
Face the Nation will be back in a minute. Stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We’re joined now by one of the top Republicans in the Senate, Wyoming’s John Barrasso, the whip.
Good to have you here in person, Senator.
SENATOR JOHN BARRASSO (R-Wyoming): Thanks. Great to be with you.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, I want to ask you about what the secretary just laid out. He did not describe this as leverage to get to a deal, said this – take him literally – the tariffs are here to stay.
We have already seen some conservative groups, like the New Civil Liberties Alliance, file suit, saying that these are not on solid constitutional and legal ground. Do you think the president’s on solid legal ground?
SENATOR JOHN BARRASSO: Well I think he is.
But, look, this is about a monumental change in the direction of our government. We are – and I’m talking about a change in terms of the size, as well as the priorities. And this is a 180-degree change from what we had for the last four years with big government, big spending, big taxes.
And we have a comprehensive economic plan to get to a strong, healthy, growing economy for the American people. That’s why we passed what we did just yesterday in the Senate, because we want people to have more – better jobs, more opportunities, and more money in their own pockets.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
SENATOR JOHN BARRASSO: So, in terms of the tariffs, I believe they’re a tool.
And I think we have to go after China. They have been abusing us for years. And I believe the president is on const – firm constitutional grounds.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But when I hear you talk about sort of the one-two punch on the economic plan for the president, tax cuts being one of them, isn’t there some coordination on sequencing here?
Because wouldn’t you go ahead and remove the regulations and go ahead with the tax cuts before you go to war with the entire world over trade?
SENATOR JOHN BARRASSO: Well, the president has been talking about these tariffs every speech that I was with him during the campaign.
MARGARET BRENNAN: He was indeed.
SENATOR JOHN BARRASSO: There is no surprise here. He’s also talked about making sure we don’t have this $4 trillion tax increase that the Democrats want to have.
We have a lot of work to do to reverse the damage that’s been done over the last four years with the Democrats that led to the highest inflation in 40 years.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
SENATOR JOHN BARRASSO: So the president wants to get a lot of things done. And I want to get a lot of things done in Congress as part of this comprehensive economic plan.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I’m sure you saw the Fed chair also say that we may be facing inflation now in part because of these tariffs.
You know some in the Senate are very concerned about having more control and say over trade. Maria Cantwell, a senator who will be with us later in this program, partnered with Chuck Grassley, one of the most powerful Republicans, with this bill to try to claw back control. They want 48 hours’ notice on tariffs, suggest they didn’t get much this time.
And they want them to expire after 60 days unless Congress approves of them. Will leadership let this effort advance?
SENATOR JOHN BARRASSO: Well, Senator Grassley is chairman of the Judiciary Committee.
But let me just say, the president is on firm legal grounds here. Over the last 90 years, Congress has given the presidents, different presidents, more and more authority to deal with national security issues with regard to tariffs, to use tariffs with regard to unfair trade. So the president has the authority.
I think this is similar to the bill that Chuck Grassley introduced about five years ago. They had debate then. Many of the cosponsors are the same. This will get a thorough hearing, and then we will see where it goes from there.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you think, though, that Congress needs to have more of a say on trade issues?
SENATOR JOHN BARRASSO: Well, the Constitution says Congress has the entire say, but over the last 90 years…
MARGARET BRENNAN: That’s not the way it’s playing out now.
SENATOR JOHN BARRASSO: … more and more authority has been given to the president to be able to be more nimble to react in terms of national security, in terms of unfair trade.
And I think President Trump is doing what he has every right to do.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But it sounds like you’re open to making that more clear on what the limits should be?
SENATOR JOHN BARRASSO: Well, there will be a discussion in the Senate. We will see which way the discussion goes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You mentioned the work that got done over the weekend. You did take the step forward in advancing the president’s tax agenda and raising the debt ceiling with this budget framework.
You know what a fight you’re going to have with fellow Republicans over in the House. Jodey Arrington, the Budget chairman, called it unserious and disappointing, accused your Republican colleagues of creating $6 trillion in new costs and a mere $4 billion in enforceable cuts.
Is this headed for failure in the House?
SENATOR JOHN BARRASSO: No.
We are united in what we believe in terms of making sure we have a nation that is safe and prosperous. The speaker of the House and the leadership of the House came out and endorsed what we have done and said, hey, we ought to move ahead and take that next step.
So what we have seen…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Five Republicans have come out against it. And it’s a pretty narrow margin.
SENATOR JOHN BARRASSO: But they all agree with what we want to do, which is unleash American energy to get energy prices down for people. They all agree that we ought to make sure that we don’t have these $4 trillion tax increases.
They all want to make sure we secure the border. So all of the parts of what we have here are part of what we want to have done. Now, I’m the whip. My job is to count votes. We need 51 in the Senate. They need 218 in the House. We have to iron out the differences. We’re committed to getting it done.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We know they’re short about five votes right now. So it sounds like, if you have to take another bite at the apple – the reason that this matters so much is procedurally you have got to clear the way for all those big things you want to get done, like the tax cuts, by September.
Speaker Johnson said he wants it done by May. Senator Lankford said it has to get done by August. Does all the instability speed things up for you?
SENATOR JOHN BARRASSO: Well, I’m not worried about deadlines. I want to get – I have an urgency to get it done as soon as we can, so we can get these policies in place and also to provide the certainty to people who are worried, are my taxes going to go up at the end of the year?
They want to have the confidence that they’re not going to go up. I think the more certainty we can provide to the folks around the country, that they will see that we have – on the right path for a strong, healthy, growing economy.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR JOHN BARRASSO: And we want to get the country back on track. And the sooner we can get this passed, the sooner we can reverse the damage that the Democrats have done over the last four years.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You have got to get Speaker Johnson to wrangle those votes, though…
SENATOR JOHN BARRASSO: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: … which you admit they’re not there right now?
SENATOR JOHN BARRASSO: Well, we’re going to put the language together. We do have to iron out the differences.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR JOHN BARRASSO: And I’m committed to getting it done.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, in about 18 months, Congress will face elections, these midterm races.
Here’s your fellow Republican Senator Rand Paul.
(Begin VT)
SENATOR RAND PAUL (R-Kentucky): Historically, tariffs have also led to political decimation. When McKinley most famously put tariffs on in 1890, they lost 50 percent of their seats in the next election.
When Hawt-Smooley (sic) put on their tariff in the early 1930s, we lost the House and the Senate for 60 years.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Are you afraid history is going to repeat itself in 2026?
SENATOR JOHN BARRASSO: Well, no, I’m not. There’s a long way between now and the 2026 elections.
President Trump won based on two things, that the Democrats were the party of high prices and an open border. No one doubted President Trump’s ability to get the border closed, and 137,000 illegal immigrants…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
SENATOR JOHN BARRASSO: … in March of last year of Biden, this past March, down to 7,000. So he has been able to do that.
The Republicans are going to be judged on the economy, which is why I’m not concerned about – and…
MARGARET BRENNAN: And the Fed chairman is saying inflation is going to potentially go up and there’s great uncertainty.
SENATOR JOHN BARRASSO: That’s why I want to get this comprehensive economic plan in place as soon as possible, the certainty that the tax increases are not going to be there, the certainty that we have American energy and those jobs, the certainty we’re bringing jobs back into the country.
All of those things are going to make sure that, by the election 18 months from now, that people say, yes, we’re on the right path.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR JOHN BARRASSO: Republicans have gotten the country back. The country is back on track.
I mean, right now, from I think it’s even your own CBS poll, in terms of right track/wrong track, right direction/wrong direction, we’re at the highest we have been in 20 years in terms of the direction the country is heading.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right, but that was pre-tariffs.
Senator Ted Cruz said this:
(Begin VT)
SENATOR TED CRUZ (R-Texas): Tariffs are a tax on consumers, and I’m not a fan of jacking up taxes on American consumers, so my hope is these tariffs are short-lived, and they serve as leverage to lower tariffs across the globe.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: There’s a lot of concern, including from your – your old friend Mitch McConnell. When do you get concerned that this is going to hurt the economic story you are trying to tell?
SENATOR JOHN BARRASSO: Well, you won’t be surprised. Ted and I were on the floor just yesterday, 2:00 in the morning.
I said, you know, “I bet Margaret’s going to show that tape of what you just said about tariffs.” And we joked about it a little bit.
But there is concern. I mean, there’s concern across the country. People are watching the markets. This is not a surprise. People are concerned about this – 40(k) – 401(k)s, retirement plans, they do the best when we have confidence in the future, when we have a strong, healthy, growing economy.
And that’s why we have a comprehensive economic plan to deal with all of this, to making sure the taxes don’t go up, to cut so much of this reckless Washington spending. People saw the list of all the terrible things we’ve been spending money on in the last four years, and people were offended and angry at that.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR JOHN BARRASSO: We’re – what we’re doing is also cutting a lot of this reckless Washington spending, gives people more money in their own pockets.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But you know markets move a lot faster than Congress does, Senator.
SENATOR JOHN BARRASSO: They do.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So you’ve got your work cut out for you.
But we appreciate you laying out the details for us.
SENATOR JOHN BARRASSO: Thank you.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We’ll be right back with a lot more Face the Nation.
Stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: If you miss an interview or an episode of Face the Nation, you can watch it on our YouTube page or on FacetheNation.com.
We will be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We will be right back with Democratic Senator Maria Cantwell and Republican Congressman Don Bacon. They have some ideas about how Congress can rein in the president’s power to issue tariffs.
And we will discuss that on the other side of this break. So, stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Welcome back to FACE THE NATION.
We turn now to the top Democrat on the Commerce Committee, Washington state senator, Maria Cantwell.
Good to have you here.
SENATOR MARIA CANTWELL (D-WA): Thank you so much for having me.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, Senator, you heard the – the Senate whip talk about your effort to claw back some control over trade. He said it will have a thorough hearing and we’ll see where it goes from there. Do you have any indication of momentum among some of your Republican colleagues?
SENATOR MARIA CANTWELL: Well, the first day of interdiction we signed up seven Republicans. So, usually you don’t get first introduction and get so many people on board. But I think it shows the anxiety that people have. I’m sure if they listen to their constituents, consumer challenges are already starting to surface. And certainly the stock market’s impact on retirement income is shaking a lot of people.
So, I’m sure my colleagues will hear from them. Today consumer groups are announcing and retailers the fact that they want Congress to take this action up. And so, I think we’re hearing from a big segment of the economy, the consumer spending is a big part of GDP, and they’re worried.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So you’ve got, what six Republicans at this point?
SENATOR MARIA CANTWELL: Seven.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Seven. And now you’re saying retailers. Like, you have CEOs who are onboard or industry groups?
SENATOR MARIA CANTWELL: Industry groups, like the Retailers Association, the outdoor industry, the Consumer Electronics Group, Main Street Alliance, organizations who know their bread and butter comes from consumer spending, which is a big part of our economy. And so, they are very anxious about a plan.
Listen, I listened to your segment. I’ve never heard so much about fuzzy math in my life. And the notion that that chart is getting so much national attention, you know, the letters in Greek – all the stuff that makes no sense. That’s what people are – consumers are saying. How is this helping me, in a time of inflation? You’re adding to my cost with a tax on my consumer goods.
And so, I think that’s why we’re gaining support from these organizations today.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, Canada and China are among your state’s largest export markets. Both of – have already announced retaliatory tariffs. I know you’ve said previously that the first Trump administration and the more limited tariffs still to this day have an impact on your state. So, how much wiggle room do we have with time here? Because you heard the Commerce secretary say that basically these aren’t a negotiating ploy, that they are staying in place. That’s what he says.
SENATOR MARIA CANTWELL: Well, I –
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, how long before damage?
SENATOR MARIA CANTWELL: Well, we’re – we have seen damage from the first Trump tariffs on things like apples, and markets closed. And what you do is you end up then losing farm family economies. You don’t necessarily lose farmland. Some big corporation might buy it. But you lose family farms. So, our objective should be to help farmers open up doors to these overseas markets.
The United States’ goal here should be to make great manufactured products and grow great agriculture products and then get those markets opened up. But what the president is doing is instead of building those alliances, he basically is getting into a trade war that is having unbelievable impact, when his last tariffs on India –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR MARIA CANTWELL: We reopened with the apple market and we went to India and said, let’s – let’s get rid of this. And we were successful. And that’s the kind of action we would have – we want to see today.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, your state is one of the top five unionized states in the country. You have the world’s largest plane manufacturer, Boeing, in Washington. So, I wonder if those union workers are as supportive of the tariffs as the auto industry workers have been. They are not against them, even though some are Democrats. In fact, they think some of them, including on this program, like Shawn Fain, have been very supportive.
SENATOR MARIA CANTWELL: Well, we’re seeing – you could get the letter from the Machinist International. They don’t support the president on this. And that is because they understand how much the United States and Canada have become an integrated supply chain. That helped us lower the cost of U.S. manufacturing for cars and for airplanes. And lowering that cost means that we’re even more competitive.
So, they don’t like the uncertainty. And what they would like to see instead is the continuation of investment from the last administration. So, when you think of chips and science, and you think of the Inflation Reduction Act that made investments in next generation technology, the sectors that have a lot of employees want to win on innovation. They know that investment in innovation will help us outpace our competition, not a tariff that makes the product more expensive.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, Boeing’s CEO testified, 80 percent of the airplanes they deliver are to markets outside the U.S., 80 percent of the content of those airplanes are manufactured here. They have a vested interest in clearing the decks for themselves here. What are they telling you about their conversations with the administration?
SENATOR MARIA CANTWELL: Well, everybody’s concerned that the administration might retaliate against them. That, you know, that if they’re not front and center in this – in this debate, but they’re clear that they are being heard. I think people are saying that their strategy is – there’s a demand for 40,000 airplanes and we could increase 1,000 more planes being sold, it would have a huge impact on the trade deficit.
So, they are trying so say, Mr. President, don’t cut the innovation and investment. Don’t make semiconductors more expensive. Don’t make the parts more expensive. Make it cheaper. And the United States bet on the American worker, and they will do the rest when it comes to the innovation that’s required for America to build the best products.
So, I think the president’s math is wrong. I think he doesn’t know the calculus is going to be so devastating to American consumers.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
CANTWELL: And that’s why those groups are joining us today.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Senator Cantwell, thank you for your time today.
CANTWELL: Thank you.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We’ll be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We go now to Nebraska Republican Congressman Don Bacon, who joins us this morning from Omaha.
Congressman, I have a lot to get to with you on a number of topics here. But just to – to pick up on the tariffs that we’ve been speaking about. I know you are introducing companion legislation to what Senator Cantwell just laid out for us. But as I understand it, in the House, Republican leaders have already restricted the ability to rein in changes to the Mexico, Canada and China tariffs. They’ve tucked language into the continuing resolution.
Does that get in your way when you are trying to now claw back some congressional control of tariffs?
REPRESENTATIVE DON BACON (R-NE): Well, first of all, good morning, Margaret. Thanks for having me on.
And I enjoyed listening to Senator Cantwell. I – I support the legislation that Senator Grassley, Senator Cantwell, we have a total of seven Republicans in the Senate. And I have some beginning support in the House side which will unveil tomorrow. It will be harder to pass this in the House no doubt. I think if we get 60 votes in the Senate it will put pressure on the House to look at this. And if we continue to see the stock market go a certain direction or if we see inflation or unemployment shift in a bad way, I think then this bill becomes a very viable bill.
So, it will not pass tomorrow –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
REPRESENTATIVE DON BACON: Or maybe in the next couple weeks. But this will be in the queue that we can use. And it’s time that Congress restores its authorities here. And the Constitution is clear, the House and the Senate, Congress has the power of tariffs and taxes. And we gave some of that power to executive branch. And I think, in hindsight, that was a mistake.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But I hear you saying you have some momentum. Respectfully, sir, the president talked all the time during the campaign about tariffs. He put them at the centerpiece of his policy. He talked about the glory days of the 1800s and wanting to go back to them. Did Republicans just not take him seriously?
REPRESENTATIVE DON BACON: Well, there’s a couple of facets to your question, Margaret. It’s a good question. You’re right, though, when you look back, it was Republicans supported tariffs in the 1800s. And up and through, what, 1930, when we passed the Smoot-Hartley Act that created one of the worst – well, the worst depressions we ever had, we learned from that, that tariffs and protectionism does not work and that free trade, in the end, as long as it’s fair, we want fair trade. And I support the president wanting to get fairness. Some of these countries do treat us wrong. But fair trade should be the goal.
And you’re right, the president talked about those. He did not hide as this is part of his agenda. But here’s my take on it, and I’ve – I’ve been studying politics since I was like 13 years old. People voted for President Trump because of the border. And he has really delivered there. They voted for him, too, because inflation surpassed wage increases. They’ve – they were poorer today than they were four years ago. And I really think people voted for President Trump because of that, the border, and maybe crime if they – crime in the big cities.
I don’t think, in the end, I don’t think tariffs was really a big factor in people’s decision-making when it came to last November.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes, I just – I know we certainly covered them on this program. And it is surprising to me, or perhaps it shouldn’t be, that the business community is so silent right now. As Senator Cantwell said, she said they’re afraid.
But there is a conservative group, the New Civil Liberties Alliance, that filed suit to challenge these tariffs in court. Do you think it is the courts where this ultimately gets settled?
REPRESENTATIVE DON BACON: I think ultimately it’s in Congress once we see enough of this, but maybe the courts as well.
The Constitution makes it very clear, Congress has control of taxes. And by the way – and let’s be candid, tariffs are a tax. But they also mention tariffs in the Constitution. And we gave the president emergency powers. So, the courts will have to decide is what – what just happened, is this emergency powers or is this a total change in tariff policy. And I think it’s really the latter. This is where Congress has to step in and say, do we really want to create this new policy on tariffs? And if it is, it should come from the Congress and not the president.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I want to ask you as well about your work on the Armed Services Committee. President Trump has fired the top two officials at the head of the very powerful National Security Agency. It’s one of the most powerful intelligence agencies we have. It vacuums up information around the world through wiretapping, signals intercepts and they work with the military, with Cyber Command.
Have you received any explanation to Congress as to why General Haugh, the four-star general unanimously confirmed to the job, was suddenly dismissed?
REPRESENTATIVE DON BACON: Margaret, I have not. But let me just comment on this. General Haugh is the absolute best leader in the U.S. military to lead Cyber Command and National Security Agency. He commanded both because half of Cyber Command relies on NSA to be effective in cyber operations.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
REPRESENTATIVE DON BACON: So, you have to have this team. And he was in charge of both. He served 34 years in the military, and his entire career was working signals intelligence or cyber operations. Frankly, he is the best that we had. And they also fired the number two person at the National Security Agency without an explanation.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE DON BACON: I will tell you, this puts us back. It hurts us. And I will tell you, Russia and China today are laughing at us because we just fired the absolute best leaders, the most qualified. Guys that we spent three and a half decades preparing to have this role, and he’s gone.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
REPRESENTATIVE DON BACON: And it’s – it’s heartbreaking to see that that decision was made without explanation. And it hurt us.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And – and our reporting, as a network, is that it came as a decision following an Oval Office meeting with a right-wing activist named Laura Loomer, who has spread conspiracy theories about 9/11, said anti-Muslim, anti-immigrant things, racist things.
It also happened as at least six other National Security Council officials at the White House were dismissed on the advice of Laura Loomer.
I’m wondering, again respectfully, sir, Republicans are in control and you have oversight. Are there going to be hearings on this? Are there other Republicans who are concerned and going to do something about it?
REPRESENTATIVE DON BACON: I’m sure there will be some oversight. I’m a – I’m the chairman of the Cyber Subcommittee, and so I guarantee you that we will have various military leaders, we’ll have the secretary of defense speak to us, and he will be asked about this. And I will –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Did he even know?
REPRESENTATIVE DON BACON: I don’t know that he knew, but we’ll find out when we ask him. We’ll ask him. He’ll say that this is the president’s right. And the president does have constitutional right to do this. But it doesn’t make it appropriate or – OK, he may have the constitutional authority to do it, but it doesn’t make it right.
And, in the end, I’m going to make it clear, we just removed the most qualified military leader that we had to run Cyber Command and NSA. And we will ask about it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE DON BACON: Now, we have oversight. That doesn’t mean we can – the president does have the constitutional authority to do this. But we have a – we have an opportunity to probe into this and ask why.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you –
REPRESENTATIVE DON BACON: And I have a responsibility to make clear this was wrong. It hurt us. It hurt our country.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Very quickly, do you think it is so that the president can split up those two commands and put someone of his own choosing, a political ally, at the top of the NSA?
REPRESENTATIVE DON BACON: You know, it’s possible. I know that’s out there. But I would say that’s a mistake. NSA is very important to Cyber Command. You can’t do Cyber Command without the inputs from the National Security Agency, the SECNET (ph).
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE DON BACON: If you separate them and put them under two different commands, then you’re going to create a dysfunctional partnership and it will hurt our cyber operations against China and Russia.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Understood.
OK. Congressman, we’d love to have you back for another conversation about cyber one time.
REPRESENTATIVE DON BACON: Thank you.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We have to leave it there.
We’ll be back in a moment.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: On Friday we spoke with NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte and began our conversation by asking about the potential impact of the Trump administration’s sweeping global tariffs on the security alliance.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MARK RUTTE, SECRETARY GENERAL, NATO: There are tensions between the allies because of these – this tariffs question. But this is not concerning the alliance as a whole because there will be potentially impact on – on the economies, but not to an extent that it will impact our collective defense. That’s my firm conviction.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The next summit is now going to be held in June. And leaders there expected to hike the military budget spending goal from 2 percent to 3 percent. The Trump administration wants it all the way up to spending about 5 percent on a country’s own defense.
How do you convince members to spend more, to counter the threat from Russia, at a time when the U.S. is going closer to it and the U.S. is putting economic pressure on Europe?
MARK RUTTE: What Trump has done since he came into office is break the deadlock when it comes to this terrible war in Ukraine because we’ve got to stop the killing. We have got to stop the fighting. And I commend him for that.
And then when it comes to defense spending, last couple of months, here in the European side of NATO, it is staggering, the amount of billions coming in. We have to continue doing this because, as I said in December, if he would stick to the old 2 percent, we cannot defend ourselves here in three to five years.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But at the same time that President Trump is calling for a peace deal in Ukraine, there is this parallel, separate effort to repair America’s relationship with Russia. Doesn’t the U.S. getting closer to Russia undercut your efforts to counter Russia?
MARK RUTTE: Of course, I am – I am not in the room when all these talks take place. But what I am seeing from a – from distance and hearing from my American colleagues and all – including the president, whom I visited a couple weeks ago in a very successful meeting we had in the Oval Office and – and – and during lunch. There is this effort to bring this war to an end. The goal clearly is in the court of the Russians. They are not moving fast enough, is my impression, including the impression I’m getting from my American interlocutors. That – that Russia really has to do more to bring this war to an end. The Ukrainians are – are really close to the American position. And – and – and we have seen – we have to see how far the Americans can get this.
But I am completely supporting that effort because this war of protection – – protection, it was unsustainable in the long term. So many people dying. So much of the Ukrainian infrastructure being damaged. Cities being destroyed. It’s got to end.
MARGARET BRENNAN: General Cavoli, who you know well as the supreme allied commander of NATO, the U.S. general, is here in Washington testifying this week. He said, “Russia intends to diminish U.S. leadership and influence.” What is happening to NATO members here? And – and is Russia succeeding in this destabilization campaign?
MARK RUTTE: What we are seeing in Europe, but also in the U.S., but – but let me speak for the European side of NATO, is that the Russians, through cyberattacks, assassination attempts, jamming commercial airplanes in the Baltic area, cyberattacks on the national health service in the United Kingdom, cutting critical (INAUDIBLE) infrastructure between the Baltic countries and Finland, and in other parts of the Baltic – in the Baltic Sea. They are – they are conducting this campaign.
The good news is that as NATO, as collective, we are much, much better, not only at assessing what is happening, but also making sure that we prevent the next steps in this campaign from happening.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So that destabilization campaign has not halted or paused as these attempts to broker peace have been underway?
MARK RUTTE: Well, I mean, this whole destabilization campaign is going on for years now.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
MARK RUTTE: And I have no day to day assessment. But the reports we are getting is that Russia is still very active. We are still worried about, for example, (INAUDIBLE) infrastructure. But things do (INAUDIBLE). And in his role as supreme allied commander, we have in – in less than ten days brought together a big endeavor by European NATO allies in the – in the Baltic Sea to really make it very difficult for the Russians to continue doing this.
And again they – they hate us for this. And – and I love that.
MARGARET BRENNAN: There are roughly about 90,000 or more U.S. troops stationed in Europe right now. Secretary Hegseth said Europe should not assume that presence is going to last forever. I know you say that the U.S. is committed to NATO, but do you have any sense of how fast or significant this kind of drawdown that’s being mentioned by Hegseth could be? And is there NATO backup plan?
MARK RUTTE: There are no concrete plans for the drawdown, but we know, and Pete Hegseth was very clear on this, is that this U.S. administration, but, by the way, this is U.S. policy since 2010, to pivot more towards Asia, towards the Indo-Pacific.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
MARK RUTTE: And agreement we have is that we will do whatever is necessary, and in surprises way. I completely acknowledge the fact that U.S. has, the United States, has more theaters to attend to, not only the Euro-Atlantic, but also the Indo-Pacific.
And by the way, also thanks to President Trump and his position on this, as NATO we will be more and more active in the Indo-Pacific, with our partners. I will visit Japan next week to have my meetings there with the senior leadership to see how we can intensify that strong relationship we already have with the Indo-Pacific.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You’ve raised concern that China is building towards 1,000 nuclear warheads by 2030. Is that a direct threat to NATO?
MARK RUTTE: It is. It is a direct threat to the stability of the whole world, including NATO territory, absolutely. They have now more NATO ships sailing than the United States. We have a problem. The United States, part of NATO, Canadian part of NATO, European part of the NATO, that we are not producing enough defense industrial product. We are producing, in – in a full year in ammunition what Russia is producing in three months, that’s totally crazy. And that’s why the president and I discussed and the other senior leaders in the U.S. and I discussed also with European allies that we have not only to ramp up spending, but also the defense industrial production, that includes cutting the red tape, both in the U.S. and here in Europe.
MARGARET BRENNAN: All right, just to quickly clarify that – China’s nuclear arsenal is a direct threat to NATO?
MARK RUTTE: Well, it’s there not to be used against China. But I would say, amore generally, let’s not be naive about China. The build up of their armed forces is taking place at a pace which is incredible. And when we talk about Ukraine and bringing Ukraine to a durable end and a peace, a durable peace in the end, let’s not forget that Russia is working with North Korea and China and Iran, and that in the end it is an audience of one watching what comes out of this. And that is the first secretary of the communist party of China, Xi Jinping, and he will access when there is a deal on Ukraine, who comes out on top. Is it the west or is it Russia? And if it is Russia, he would get his thoughts going about his territorial claims in the Indo-Pacific. So, there are big risks involved. And that’s why we have to bring Ukraine to a peace which is lasting and that Putin will never try this again.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MARGARET BRENNAN: You can see our full interview on cbsnews.com and on our YouTube page.
We’ll be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: That’s it for us today. Thank you for watching. Until next week.
For FACE THE NATION, I’m Margaret Brennan.